Talk:Northern Dancer

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 September 2020 and 18 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ameliadodds.

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I would love to see some information regarding updated legacies for Northern Dancer. There is a public school in Oshawa, Ontario named after the racehorse.Ameliadodds (talk) 16:28, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

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Northern Dancer's stud fee reached $1,000,000.

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BetacommandBot 23:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC) ṣṜṜṢṢṢṢṢṢ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.113.50 (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

References

My references are not appearing in this section. Could SKS please assist.Cgoodwin (talk) 10:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Controversy

It might be worth mentioning the controversy over whether too much inbreeding to the Northern Dancer line is producing unsound horses. It would have to be neutrally and carefully handled, but it's out there. Montanabw^(talk) 19:55, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I usually see the unsoundness inbreeding concern raised with Raise A Native and Mr. P., where there is a physical problem that needs to be compensated for. I've read some more casual mutterings against Northern Dancer inbreeding (mostly among casual race fans), but the people who do the number crunching don't see a problem. http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/106095/pedigree-analysis-doubling-down-on-danzig I was thinking about adding something about one of the reasons for the rise of the AP sire line is as an outcross to Northern Dancer. I saw that mentioned when I was looking at Tapit. Jlvsclrk (talk) 02:41, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I think that is a good idea. I'll look at the inbreeding stuff; I know there was a lot about it back with Barbaro broke down. It is a controversy that's out there, I will see what the sourcing looks like (though Secretariat is ahead in the queue.) I'll post what I find and see what you think. Montanabw^(talk) 06:02, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm working on this periodically when I get burned out looking at Secretariat. I'm going to look through some of the books I've got for more racing details - lots of online stuff on his career as a stallion, but not so much as a racehorse. As for the inbreeding, I'm curious if there might have been some controversy on Big Brown, because he was 3 x 3 to Northern Dancer (which is kinda crazy IMO) and wound up having the same quarter crack issues that the Dancer experienced. Was the section on the sire line overkill? There already is the ND category, but that doesn't show the relationships. Jlvsclrk (talk) 21:55, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

There was when he scratched from the Belmont. I did a google search on the topic and the big rant is about Native Dancer and both Northern Dancer and Mr. Prosepector get the rap. So, arguably, the whole debate could move to the Northern Dancer article, except for a passing comment. There was also an uproar after Eight Belles' breakdown. In essence, if we apply WP:SCIRS, I did find this, but there is a lot in the popular press. I'll list the non-hysterical stuff (the best I can, a lot of it is kind of hyterical) Montanabw^(talk) 02:10, 8 July 2016 (UTC) :

• http://www.theinformant.co.nz/features/2015bs/UW41375/History-reveals-inbreeding-in-a-more-positive-light
• https://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/is-gray-ghost-haunting-todays-thoroughbred-stars/ This one discusses why not to blame this bloodline.
• http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2008-05-14/sports/0805140239_1_native-dancer-eight-belles-sagamore article cited in the above blog
• http://www.taylormadestallions.com/eskendereya_ped_anthony.html discusses nicks in a positive light

The articles suggesting it IS a problem here:

• http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/31/frowning-on-big-brown/comment-page-1/?_r=0
• http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB120968356843561083
• http://espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/columns/story?id=3399004 (this by William Nack)
• http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/wondermonkey/2011/11/bred-to-destruction.shtml (broad overview of the issue, doesn't point fingers except in the comments)
• http://www.horsefund.org/horse-racing-breeding-for-trouble-part-2.php

I'd put the main controversy under Native Dancer, because that's where the fingers are really being pointed, which is grossly unfair IMO. Raise a Native and Mr. P though, yeah, that's fair game :> Or perhaps the big discussion should go in the inbreeding section in the breeding theories article, which I've been meaning to work on. Anyways, for Northern Dancer, I'll mention there is a controversy about inbreeding - the bbc article is very sensible (and it had a good point about the impact of the large foal crops), talk about breeding through the best to avoid problems (eg, Big Brown was inbred through a horse (Boundary) who didn't exactly tear up the tracks and his dam wasn't a proven racehorse either), mention outcrossing options still available (AP Indy line, German breds, some old French stock - who knows, the need for outcrosses may help revive the Byerley Turk line that's on the brink of extinction.) Sound good? Jlvsclrk (talk) 06:45, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Works for me. Montanabw^(talk) 07:26, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Updating Northern Dancer now. Looks like Raise A Native of the Native Dancer line was the horse that raised the red flags about Eight Belles' breeding. He was definitely unsound and is known to pass that on, and yet Eight Belles was 5 x 4 x 5 to him. Sad. Jlvsclrk (talk) 15:38, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Just chipping in here and mounting my hobby-horse. I don't think that the inbreeding issue can be considered as entirely separate from the drug issue in US horse racing. If problems with soundness are masked by medication horses will run their hearts out until they sustain career-ending injuries. And if they've won a big race or two before their legs give way, they go to stud and pass their infirmities on. And I also know that this is just me whining rather than trying to improve the article. Sorry. Tigerboy1966  17:04, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I agree. I'd say modern training practices, including medication to mask unsoundness or breathing problems, and modern breeding practices, including using such medicated horses who pass on their faults, are FAR more likely to be contributing factors to unsoundness than inbreeding to a horse like Northern Dancer. But where to put this in an encyclopedia? Jlvsclrk (talk) 18:40, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree with both of you. We actually have some places where we can add this, so long as we have good, solid sourcing and a really thick flamesuit! One place is at the articles on Lasix and other medications, where their impact on horses can be noted. We also have a convoluted mess of an article titled Equine drug testing that could easily be improved and made into some sort of decent piece (It was Drugs in horse racing, but I changed the title -- drugs are a problem in other area of equestrian sport too, so a general overview is probably best there). Montanabw^(talk) 04:56, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Article improvement drive

@Jlvsclrk: Per your question at WP Horse racing, Here's what I'm seeing in the current article:

1. A fair number of deadlinks and 404 errors. Need to check/fix all the citations.
2. First paragraph of biography, the pedigree stuff, is a bit of a mishmash. Might want to just put in the basics about the sire and dam, them move the rest down to the pedigree section... I did a bit of this, hope it helped.
3. Needs a chart of his races and racing stats, standard for most of our racehorse biographies. I started it, but needs sourcing
4. End of life and burial section should be moved up by Stud career. The stuff on inbreeding and all should come after the pedigree section.
5. I don't think we need the female family numbers for all mares in the pedigree, just the tail-female line.
6. The lists of famous offspring are messy, overdone and best placed into a separate, stand-alone list (List of stakes winners by Northern Dancer or something). The leading sires can similarly be summarized because I see you already have that list in a stand-alone article. His contributions are so enormous that what's needed is a secondary source explaining the 4-5 major contributions to the breed he made, not the whole laundry list.
7. Photos need to be reexamined and not overdone. Focus on the horse himself and only a few offspring.
8. The photo of the statue may not pass muster as a free image, depending on when the sculpture was created (pre or post-1976, or whenever the law changed).

I might make a few in-text tweaks, but here's the main stuff I think needs work. Montanabw^(talk) 17:55, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

1. I've tried to fix the deadlinks - most of it was the Northern Dancer timeline article that I've now linked to via wayback (in many ways, it's an online summary of Lennox's book). I'll go through all the other citations now. 2. yes, works better now. 3. done. 4. for me, inbreeding logically follows the sire of sire section. we can play with it. 5. done. 6. I did a table for the major offspring - similar to say galileo. I've tidied up the sire of sires section too but it's a balancing act. The phenomenal sales results in his later years were the result of the success of nijinsky, lyphard et al as sires themselves - that's what made him "the most valuable commodity on earth" to quote hunter. 7. pruned back 8. in Canada, I think the copyright is quite different. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-42/FullText.html 32.1 (1)(b)(2) allows for reproduction of statues on permanent display in a public place.

I think we're in good shape now. Jlvsclrk (talk) 02:11, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Statistics section - racetrack or racecourse?

In the list of ND's races in the statistics section, Woodbine and Aqueduct are variably named as "Racecourse" and "Racetrack" - is this a deliberate thing due to renamings or just something which needs to be fixed for consistency? --Bcp67 (talk) 08:16, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Good catch! Turns out they're both Racetrack so I fixed the table entries Jlvsclrk (talk) 23:06, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Sorry I sort of dropped that project in the middle, got distracted. Montanabw^(talk) 04:20, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

People magazine description

I have been exploring the origin of the People magazine description of Northern Dancer, quoted in the article and by secondary sources as "the only celebrity that could earn a million dollars before breakfast". The closest I have found is:

NORTHERN DANCER (4 BEES) On some days he can earn $1 million—before lunch. Twenty years after he quit the track, Northern Dancer spends part of his mornings during the mating season in a breeding shed in Maryland, where he has sired 550 offspring—109 of whom have already won stake races. Dancer’s syndicate has turned down an offer of $40 million for the stallion, who, at an elderly 24—an age roughly equivalent to that of a 75-year-old man—can still “cover” 36 mares a year.
– "How Hard Do They Work?" Fred Bernstein, People 23(3), January 21, 1985

which suggests that the secondary sources have misquoted the original. There does not seem to be a separate article in People that also includes "only celebrity" and "breakfa=st". So it appears a number of reputable news outlets have (probably unsurprisingly) not bothered to check their sources, including the article's current citation [11], as well as The Guardian, The Sport, and others.  ~ RLO1729^💬 10:32, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Great researching - I can never find anything in their archives. Looks like the secondary sources "improved" on the original. I'll change the article accordingly. Jlvsclrk (talk) 17:18, 12 April 2020 (UTC)