Talk:Ski jumping

Notability

Shouldn't a notable ski jumper have won an individual medal at a major competition, or contributed significantly to the development of the sport? A number of guys on the list do not meet either criteria. It's becoming an encyclopedia of everyone who's ever competed pro. Can we have some standards here? Brmull (talk) 02:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

More questions: What seems to be missing from this discussion is a description of the ski jump ramp itself. Are all ski jump ramps created equal? If so, what is the length, height, grade, etc. If not, what is the variation between ramps? What are the specifications for ramps used in competition? Given the olympic competitions underway, what are the IOC rules for ski jump venutes? this would seem to be pertinent information for the rules section of the description of ski jumping.

thanks... Unklklf (talk) 04:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

A FEW OF QUESTIONS...

Someone already asked this first one but I will ask again...

1) How do they measure the distance in both Ski Jumping and Ski Flying? Is there electronic assistance? 2) I was watch Ski Flying on TV and they super impose a blue and red line on the snow. They mention that the blue line is the longest jump of...the day, the round, the event??? but there is no mention of what the red line is. Is it the world record? 3) It is mentioned that Ski Jumpers are suppose to land in a telemark position. Is this a rule? Is the jump nullified or do they just lose some style points if they don't land that way? 4) Do Ski Flyers have to land in a telemark position too? I watched the world record Ski Flying jump and he landed parallel...but I don't see anything refering to rules for Ski Flying. 5) What is all that crap on the ski jump landing area? It looks like small branches or little tiny trees but I see no mention of it any where. Or is it just some black colouring under the show? I assume it is to help the jumper/flier see the ground better but I have never read or heard any mention of it. 6) During a recent Ski Flying competition on TV there was a brief mention that the officials might move the platform that the skiers sit on prior to standing up to start their jump. I assume this is done for safety if people are jumping too far for the landing area but am not sure. What causes them to move it, how far do they usually move it and do they do it in mid round or do they wait for the next round of jumping? If they move it in mid round how do they compare the pre and post move jumps to keep things equitable? 7) What are factors which affect how far a ski jumper can jump? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.132.77 (talk) 16:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

If someone has some answers I would be more than happy to add it to the article. I am also emailing the official Ski Flying organization but figured I would post the questions here too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hgray14 (talk • contribs) 23:44, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

thanks, Houston

Some information on how high / far a ski jumper can go would be nice. The world record is apparently 194 m. I'm trying to find how high.

I edited the article to say maximum distances of around 140m are reached on the large hill (K120). Distances of over 130m are commonplace and Malysz actually jumped 151.5m at Willingen (a K120 hill). The world record is held by Bjørn Einar Romøren and its 239m, not sure how it would fit into the article but it's definitely correct information. Maybe a bullet point after K90 and K120 to include ski-flying (around K170-K185) is appropriate.

The 239m record is in ski flying, not ski jumping. They are different events, and ski flying hills are much larger. --Ifrit 22:11, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

That distinction is in name only. Ski flying is really a subclass of ski jumping. Same athletes compete in both events, using same equipment and under the same rules. In FIS official webpage http://www.fis-ski.com/ all ski flying competitions are listed under the ski jumping section. --Alatopi 15:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Alatopi is right. They are classified as the same event by the International Ski Jump Association. 218.224.120.56 (talk) 07:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Answer: The ski jumper is never any higher than at the take-off point in the jump. So, depending on the structure, heights vary from very low to as high as 9m. As for distance, again, depending on the hill, the jumpers are only allowed to jump to the "critical point" which is defined as the point the hill goes from a downward slope to a transition point where the hill starts the outrun.

Actually the high point of jumper's trajectory is somewhat after the take-off. After all they do _jump_ from the take-off ramp. I don't have any reliable figures of how high they go from the ground but I have heard that nowadays it's only about four meters off the ground even on the ski flying hills. During the 80s - before the V-style - the hills were different. The take-off ramps were pointed more upwards and the jumper could be flung as high as ten meters from the ground on the largest ski flying hills. But this is really only a hearsay. --Alatopi 16:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Could someone please add a section flight time (time in the air) and the standing record. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tavernsenses (talk • contribs) 15:58, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

b shit

Normal Hill K95

I notice that in this year's Olympic games, the Normal hill is K95 and not K90. Is the main article a typo, or is it a different standard for Olympic jumps?

Normal hill is actually any hill with a critical point between 80 and 105 metres. K90 is by far the most common though. Bogfjellmo 22:31, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

An older technique

The article states "Previous techniques first included the Kongsberger technique" but it seems an earlier one existed in the 1920s — see this clip from Switzerland I put on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4IM0NrRR2Y

Training

How do ski jumpers learn? Do they just throw you down the ramp and expect you to pull it off? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 03:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

They start in much smaller hills than what they use in top level competition. When I started jumping at about 12 years of age I started in a k-21 hill. These hills arent very scary at all, and it doesnt really require any skill to be able to jump from one, even if your performance might be low. Wims (talk) 23:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposed merge

Can't see anyplace else this is discussed. If we're collecting opinions to sound a consensus:

• Oppose the merge. The article will grow, and a ski flying section in the ski jumping article will most likely grow and link into a {{main.. in the end anyway. MURGH ^disc. 23:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge by all means. It may never outgrow the need of just one article. MURGH ^disc. 01:35, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
• Merge. Ski flying is not a sport of its own, "ski flying" is marketing talk for ski jumping in hills larger than the traditional K90 and K120 hills. Having the subject of ski jumping separated into two different articles gives a false impression of there being a distinction other than hill size between ski jumping and ski jumping, which there in reality is not.--Gosub 14:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I support this view. There will never be a fixed distinction between ski flying and "ordinary" ski jumping. The Norwegian-language article fully integrates the two. --EvenT 23:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• oppose merge allthough ski flying is a form of ski jumping one can say there are two disciplines because every two years a ski flying worldchampionship is organised. In the other years there is a ski jumping worldchampionship (element of the Nordic Ski Worldchampionships) Miho NL 13:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
• Merge Same sport, different hill size. We have articles for Ski-flying World Championships, so I believe there's no need for an article on the "sport". --Pudeo (Talk) 21:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Merge since ski flying only refers to the largest hill size. But the mainarticle does need content on other hill sizes (small, normal, large, flight) for the merge be seamles. The Merciful 14:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

 Done Reywas92^{TalkReview me} 20:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• Undone. After almost eight years without seeing much progress in the ski jumping article, I've single-handedly written enough content and collected a number of sources in order to warrant ski flying its own article (although User:Sportomanokin originally got things going on the sly). It should now be clear as to how ski jumping and ski flying are distinct from each other—way different hills, distances, some rules, and its own notable history. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 16:48, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Unreferenced article

The article is fairly good, but it could do with some references. Andjam 03:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I went ahead and tagged it as such. Also, the citations present don't really account for much of the article's content. --Jt (talk) 05:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Calculation line?

What's a calculation line? 72.74.210.228 (talk) 01:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, what's a "K-spot"? 72.74.210.228 (talk) 01:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

K-Spot is the Construction point (probably shortened with a K because of Germans/Austrians) which is the mathematical Inflection point of the landing hill. Judith Sunrise (talk) 02:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Wrong ski jumping record

The Romanian record is 152 meters, Mihai Damian. AlwaysOnion (talk) 16:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Added hoax tag

I dont belive that the the National Records from Georgia and down is right. Sources, please otherwise i will remove them. Zoggoemila80calgary (talk) 10:28, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Now, i gonna remove them because of no sources and hard to belive its true anyway. Zoggoemila80calgary (talk) 09:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

How is distance measured?

When watching ski jumping on television, I have difficulty in seeing what distance has been achieved, because I do not know how it is measured. If the measurement is similar to the athletics long jump, the distance is that completely cleared, which would be the tail of the rearmost ski, giving the shortest measurement. Is that it? Or is it distance measured to the rearmost (or foremost) foot? This could make a difference of half a metre, which seems to be the order of accuracy of the measurement. And how is is measured anyhow - is there some electronic assistance, or is it purely visual? I cannot find this anywhere I have looked to date. Thanks for any reply. Patche99z (talk) 14:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

• The distance is measured between the front and the rear foot, if the jumper performs a telemark-landing. If the jumper lands with his feet side-by-side, the distance is measured directly under his feet. McGuffy (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:21, 21 March 2009 (UTC).

Images

That's strange: Five of the eight images are of ski jump facilities in the summer. Just one of an actual ski jumper. Astronaut (talk) 02:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

People seem to prefer taking pictures of ski jumping hills in the summer, rather than in the winter. We need more and better pictures of ski jumpers in action. Blue Elf (talk) 21:37, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

 Done Added two images of actual ski jumpers, from Commons. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 01:05, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Bavaria = Germany

"The Four Hills Tournament, held annually at four sites in Bavaria, Germany and Austria around New Year, is very popular and draws huge crowds."

Bavaria is a state in Germany, even if some Bavarian would like to be independent ;-) 71.59.225.186 (talk) 02:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Question regarding numbers per discipline for women's skiing

I've been cleaning up the cites in the women's ski jump section, and I noticed that there seems to be a possible issue with the cites used for comparing the number of ski cross competitors to the number of ski jumpers. The link used for ski jumpers is the "biography" section of the website, as below. The only issue is that I'm not sure what the basis is for inclusion in this section.

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/disciplines/skijumping/competitorbiographies.html?listid=&lastname=&gender=L&firstname=&nation=&status=OE&fiscode=&Search=Search&rec_start=0&limit=100

In contrast, the link used for the ski cross section is the FIS points table, as below.

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/607.html?sector=FS&listid=10049&lastname=&gender=L&firstname=&nation=&order=SX&fiscode=&birthyear=&Search=Search&rec_start=0&limit=100

Is this comparing like for like, or is this apples and oranges? Unfortunately, the "biography" section doesn't allow for the idenfication of skiers who are Freestyle / Ski Cross, only Freestyle as a whole.

Part of me is inclined to wonder if including the links at all counts as OR. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Random name (talk • contribs) 14:01, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

You are right. "There are more women ski jumpers than women who have earned points in ski cross". Kahkonen (talk) 18:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Original research and Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words too. Kahkonen (talk) 18:52, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Youtube link

Is it appropriate to link to the YouTube video? (I suspect it's an unauthorized upload from a TV program.) - Mike Rosoft (talk) 17:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

K point

I found the discussion of K point very unclear on several points. First, it says "For K-90 and K-120 competitions, the K line is at 90 metres (300 ft) and 120 metres (390 ft) respectively." 90 meters from what? The top of the ski run? The take off point? Second, I don't understand "The K point is the point on the hill where the slope begins to flatten as measured from the take off". What does "slope begins to flatten out" mean? And what does "measured from the take off point" mean? I understand "slope" to mean rise over run, and the slope of a point doesn't have different values depending on where it's measured from. Finally, "The value of a metre is determined from the size of the hill." What? This can't be saying what it seems to say, that a nonstandard meter length is used in these measurements. Mnudelman (talk) 22:58, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

K-Spot is the the mathematical Inflection point of the landing hill. I have an idea what could be meant with the different meters. You can either measure the horizontal distance, or let a measuring tape follow the slope of the hill. The latter would give a bigger distance. I still don't know which one the sentence above describes.Judith Sunrise (talk) 02:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Women's ski jumping

I cannot find a announcement for a women's event at the web-page of the Sochi Olympics. http://www.olympic.org/ski-jumping Does this mean they are out again?! Then we should fix the footnote and correct the article here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski_jumping#cite_note-11 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.130.170.118 (talk) 10:58, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Other records

other records under "1st ever mixed team event" link to Mostec, Ljubljana, Slovenia. however link to mostec is wrong. the mostec where the ski jumps were held is part of Ljubljana. the link points to Mostec that it on the other side of the country. 89.212.30.107 (talk) 20:43, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Propose: total World Cups/Four Hills in infobox

The current {{Infobox ski jumper}} sorely needs a field which lists the total amount of both World Cups and Four Hills tournaments a jumper has won. Just now I had a quick look at Gregor Schlierenzauer's article, but nowhere does it clearly state his World Cup tally—not even within the lead section—whilst only a brief mention is made of his Four Hills tally somewhere at the bottom. Not good enough. On the other hand, take a look at {{Infobox Champ Car driver}} and {{Infobox F1 driver}}, in that how it is immediately stated as to how many World Championships a driver has won. Nice and informative for casual skim-readers, or those looking for quick statistics. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 06:18, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

 Done *..and done talking to self* Mac Dreamstate (talk) 00:48, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Propose: not a sport

Requires judges of "style" so should be downgraded like diving, sloppystyle ski boarding, gymnastics, dancing and dressage 80.1.254.149 (talk) 23:23, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Jury downgraded sportsmen who used the V-style technique in 80th

It looks like a spit on olympic motto Citius, Altius, Fortius (faster, higher, stronger). How the hell subjective judgment survived such a fail and ski jumps wins are still depends on judges marks.91.77.244.67 (talk) 21:19, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.usaskijumping.org/news-section/scoring. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and according to fair use may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Marchino61 (talk) 01:20, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The offending text was added in revision as of 00:47, 12 March 2014 by 24.183.128.62

I have not deleted the entire edit, just the offending paragraph. Marchino61 (talk) 01:20, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Iraschko(-Stolz) mentioned twice

In the list of injured female ski-jumpers Daniela Iraschko-Stolz is mentioned twice (once with her pre-civil-union-name Daniela Iraschko).Judith Sunrise (talk) 02:04, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Statistics

The amount of statistics on this article is way too large. I propose that most of them be shunted to a separate article dealing with all the facts and figures, similar to the List of Formula One records or Lists of tennis records and statistics. Since there is rarely any feedback on ski jumping articles, I will simply perform the split myself very soon. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 02:10, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

"Men/ladies"

Although the word "women" is used 10 times in this article, they are referred to 19 times as "ladies" - whereas the men are invariably referred to as "men", never as "gentlemen". Can we finally get rid of this outmoded usage - particularly in an article that addresses the whole issue of equal gender rights in sport? It reminds you of such phrases as "lady writer".188.230.248.85 (talk) 20:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Before another bot reverts my changes

Yes, I ended up removing 40% of the article, but that 40% was mostly non-contributing figures and ever-incomplete lists that would only have crapped up the article further in the future. The information is not lost! If someone with an account wants to break it out into list-like subarticles, click the History link, grab the information from an older copy, and go hog wild. 180.15.182.119 (talk) 12:40, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Like I stated after reverting you, it's best to create a "List of" article for the content, not simply delete all of the content because you don't want it in the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:51, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

The IP reverted me. I've alerted WP:WikiProject Skiing and Snowboarding to this issue. That project isn't too active, though. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:59, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't have an account and can't create a page. Feel free to make a start and I'll move content over later on. 180.15.182.119 (talk) 13:01, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Original research

All-time ranking table (previously named "the greatest ever") is nothing more than an original research, who counts the points like that? The source is for the alpine skiing and not ski jumping, someone just "stole" the system used for alpine skiing and converted it into the ski jumping table, with everything calculated manually, there is nowhere a source for tables like that, it needs to be deleted. Snowflake91 (talk) 15:13, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Actually by further checking the article, it has so many flaws that it would the best to Wikipedia:Blow it up and start over and completely re-write the article...look at the Portuguese article, which has "featured article" status (link), this is how the article should look like, only prose in several separated sections (and not detailed season-by-season "history" section with 50 sub-sections), and ALL statistics are basically not-notable here, they can be mentioned on the World Cup article (with a source) and not here (this is article about sport itself, not some World Cup statistics galore); not to mention the POV list of "notable ski jumpers" without any inclusion criteria and that user-made all-time table which I already mentioned above, and "Highest single day attendance" section is entirely unsourced as well (another original research), and pictures – 39 pictures in the article, seriously ? Snowflake91 (talk) 17:17, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

History needs more

It's clear from film that the sport in 2018 is not the same as the one from several decades ago. There are now tracks instead of snow and scoring that takes into account things like the wind. Can somebody fill in these details? - Eponymous-Archon (talk) 00:00, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Scoring

This sentence from the scoring section discussing adjustments for gate factor needs clarification or correction:

"Points are added when the starting gate is moved up, and withdrawn when the gate is lowered."

It would be more accurate to say that points are added when the athlete starts from a lower starting gate (closer to the takeoff) and deducted when starting from a higher gate (higher on the hill, and therefore further away from the takeoff). Points are added for a lower starting gate (closer to the takeoff) because there is less distance for the jumper to pick up speed. Points are deducted when starting higher on the hill (further away from the takeoff) because the increased distance from the takeoff allows the jumper to gain higher speed, aiding in the distance traveled from the takeoff point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:141:300:A7D7:21E:C2FF:FE9F:4C2 (talk) 22:12, 17 February 2018 (UTC)