Talk:Zatoichi

Beat Takeshi's Zatoichi

Referring to this particular segment, with emphasis added by me:

Zatoichi befriends a local farmer, helping her gambling son and two geishas who are seeking revenge for the murder of their parents.

I thought the gambler was the farmer's nephew, not son. The English subtitles of my copy of Zatoichi has that man referring to the farmer as 'Aunty'. --T-Boy 11:05, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That is how I remember it, also (nephew). I'm not certain, but since I haven't read anything to the contrary, I'll make the change. --Dirk Gently 02:55, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

translation of the name

[With respect to the Kanji used, I think the "ichi" in Zatoichi's name should be translated as 'city' and not "one".

It is also common for Japanese people to call older women "obasan" (aunty) in colloquial speech. This doesn't mean they're relatives, though.]--11.11.2004

Concerning the translation of "ichi," I agree. I will remove it. Is there a reason to translate the name anyway? Also, the version I watched said "nephew" when describing the young gambler. --Feitclub 02:34, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

in zatoichi meets yojimbo, which i watched last night, one character teases Z saying he should be #2 instead of "ichi" number 1. Samiam70002 06:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

In Japan, "number one killer" is a recurring concept-character in film. the translation sword master number one is a continuation of this. for this reason, i'm sure it was meant to be translated as "one". --renthehoek 06:05, 08 May 2008 (EST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.232.213.185 (talk)

So it's a pun. —Tamfang (talk) 04:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

My first language is Japanese and I have seen some of Zatoichi films, but I have never noticed this pun and it sounds slightly odd, for 'to' means 'head', not 'sword', in Japanese when it is written in Chinese character. I think this sentence should be deleted until the proper reference is provided. さえぼー (talk) 12:54, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

It could be because he has a bounty on his 'head' and everyone is always trying to claim it. like he has the number 1 head of any zato that the head hunters want. User:D0S81 03:34, 07 Aug 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.184.123 (talk)

Splitting

This page is seriously messed up. It can't make up its mind whether to be an article on the character Zatoichi, or whether it should be about the movie (the one with tap dancing) Zatoichi, or even whether it should be an article on the general Zatoichi phenonmenon (linking to the character bio and movie pages). --maru (talk) contribs 03:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I would agree that it's "messed up" if it tried to tackle all those facets without distinguishing between them, but it seems to me to be well organized. —Tamfang 19:38, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if someone makes a seperate page on the character, thanks in advance. - Guest

This IS that page about the character. If anything, the movie(s) should have a separate page, but at the moment it seems this article is well sectioned and organized. -- Ajshm 18:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reason why we have a picture of Takeshi Kitano instead of Katsu Shintaro? Are there no public domain images of Shintaro available? I'd like to see Shintaro here, because he spent most of his career portraying Ichi, and built the character as we know him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Toxonix (talk • contribs) 16:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the kanji the translation is way off. It is written 座 + 頭 + 市, which in order means "sit" + "head" + "city". The city kanji was not unusual in names. The "sit" + "head" combination means "blind man" or even "blind masseur" so that part of the translation is correct.

- Guest 12-11-2008 23:53 Japanese Time —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.239.102.179 (talk) 14:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Group of Blind

Can some body tell me where the information of the Groups of Tōdō-za is from? In the movies blind masseurs are said to be part of a group called ANMA. cheers --06:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Anma, according to my dictionary, actually means "massage". In the movies they use it the same as the term "masseur".

Fictional?

Was Zatoichi really fictional? Entirely? I remember seeing a Martial Arts documentary which briefly mentioned a traditional play telling the story of an heroic blind swordsman, though it did not mention the name Zatoichi. Also, I think Kenshi might deserve a mention on this page. Also, of the many unused ideas of Bruce Lee was his own adaptaion of Zatoichi. Dessydes 18:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

his trade

Will someone explain the change from masseur to bone-setter? —Tamfang 05:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess this someone should be me, as I changed it. Thanks, Haeleth, for telling me. I suggest you have a look at different practices of massage, shiatsu, and bone-setting. A main difference is that massage is applied to muscles and tendons, shiatsu like bone-setting pushes them in a position, which is what Zatoichi does, if you watch the scene where he helps the farmer woman. Bone setting corresponds loosely to what in Japanese is called shiatsushi, which is if I recall correctly, how they called him in the village. --Ben ^T/_C 15:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Where might I find "the scene where he helps the farmer woman"? I've only watched 16 of the series so far and it doesn't ring a bell. —Tamfang 06:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep, that was imprecise from my part now. I meant Zatoichi (2003 film). I haven't watched anything else. Ben ^T/_C 16:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I gather that there are some discrepancies between Takeshi's film (which I have not seen) and the Katsu canon; in an article on the character in general, I'd give preference to Katsu who established him. Katsu's character earns money by gambling and by massaging the weary (though his concept of "massage" is not very convincing, at least in the earliest films). —Tamfang 23:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I am of course not an expert on the history and culture of massage, but I ask myself, whether "massage" is the right word or just a simplification in translation. --Ben ^T/_C 08:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

You could try watching one of the Katsu movies. #8 is my favorite. —Tamfang 20:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I've seen all 26 Katsu films and the 2003 film. There aren't any references to "bone setting" in any of the original 26. There are also a number of differences in manner of speech, style of movement (Katsu's version has a unique way of walking and holding himself, etc), attitudes, and philosophy. They're very different characters. Lartrak 20:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Zatoichi is referred to many times as "anma san". Never is there any mention of bone setting.

I recall vividly Zatoichi also being some kind of Yakuza himself who tries to redeem himself by fighting them where ever they unjustly hurt innocent people. I can't site this with dialogue quotes exactly, but I know during Katsu's last Zatoichi film, "Zatoichi", there is a scene where a female Yakuza named Ohan makes love to Zatoichi in a bath and they recall a speech Ichi made in which he begins "We Yakuza.." If anyone has a copy of the first few Zatoichi films I'm sure they could verify this origin of the character much clearer. D Boland 18:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Zatoichi definitively states that he was Yakuza in "New Tale of Zatoichi," the third film. He states that he "became so focused on drawing swords and killing people that [he] joined the Yakuza," and implies that he did so rather than take up his father's trade (whatever that might have been, since Ichi was raised from infancy by a woman he now calls "Grandmother). Atypicaloracle (talk) 17:01, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Name

The section Character refers to his name

The character's name is actually Ichi. Zatō is a title, the lowest of the four official

ranks within the Tōdōza, the historical guild for blind men. Ichi is therefore properly

called Zatō-no-Ichi ("Low-Ranking Blind Person Ichi", approximately), or Zatōichi for short

Given that "one" in Japanese is "ichi," should this not read "Low-Ranking Blind Person Number One?"
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 21:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, but it's written with the kanji for "market" not "one". —Tamfang 06:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Personal info

I would like to see a little more personal info about ichi on this page, specifically why he took up swordplay. If I remember, he explains his reason in the first movie. He claims that other blind people try to compensate for the disability by being good masseurs or musicians, but he wanted to be different. He was tied of being called a cripple, so he took up a skill that commanded respect. It was this determination that made him very good very quickly.

As far as movie chronology goes, he took up swordplay at the late age of 23 or 24. This age is based upon what a serving girl says to some of her patrons. She says some samurai are looking for a blind masseur who is "26 or 27 years old". Ichi claims he took up swordplay "three years ago", hence the estimated age.

Certain dialogue from other characters also helps explain why he became so good. A samurai marvels at the size of Ichi's right shoulder and comments that he must have put forth a magnicent effort to attain mastery of the Sword. Again, Ichi's own swordmaster says he trained harder than any of his "seeing students" and that he would train "rain or shine".

Other personal details that should be added

1. He was not blind from birth (possibly from an illness).
2. Both of his parents died when he was young.
3. Was raised by old, woman which he calls "grandma".
4. Killed his own sword master in a duel.

I'll leave someone else to add the info as I'm sure that other users are far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am. I have only seen 5 of the 26 movies. --Ghostexorcist 05:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

In one movie Ichi says he was separated from his father during a pilgrimage (to see the sunrise on Mount Whatsit); he meets a man who might be his father. Is there another movie that says both his parents died early? —Tamfang 08:48, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The 3rd one says his parents died when he was young and an another woman took care of him. He calls her "grandma". The 26th movie says his mother died when she was 28 and he was 2. --Ghostexorcist 09:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of his relatives, don't forget that he killed his brother in a duel in the second movie (apparently over a love triangle of some kind). I don't have a copy within arms reach so I can't check it myself, but this is what I recall. Sweetfreek 19:24, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

You are right, I forgot to add that one. He even cut his arm off during a duel from their youth. --Ghostexorcist 19:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of Ichi's life, in "New Tale of Zatoichi," (the blind swordsman carries his sword in that film in an umbrella rather than as a cane) Ichi tells his childhood friend, the shamisen player Tamekichi, that he had become "so focused on drawing swords and killing people" that he joined the Yakuza. His statements that his current life was a punishment for the people he murdered while in the Yakuza seems also to imply that he was not blind from birth. Later in the film he flatly states that he could see at one time; when Yayoi tells him the moon is beautiful, he replies that he can see it in his mind - "I can still see an image of Shimodate inside my mind, lit by the moonlight when I could still see." Tamekichi refers to Ichi as "Ichi from Kasama," which would indicate that Ichi's hometown was a village called Kasama. According to the statements made by Ichi's sword master, this film comes four years after he studied under Banno, a samurai who seems to have fallen in status. Ichi also seemed to have feelings for Banno's sister. It also seems, from Banno's ease with Ichi's blindness, that Ichi was definitely already blind when he took up the sword. Atypicaloracle (talk) 16:58, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The 26th movie (1989) says Ichi lost his sight, not his mother, when he was 2 and she 28. —Tamfang (talk) 21:39, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Yojimbo

I recently watched Yojimbo, Sanjuro and Zatoichi meets Yojimbo, and was struck by how little Sassa (in the latter film) resembled Sanjuro (in the Kurosawa pair) – apart from being played by Mifune, of course. The paragraph recently added to the article makes me wonder whether the writer saw the same movies I saw. —Tamfang (talk) 09:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It is debateable at best if the Yojimo of the Kurasawa films and the Yojimbo of Zatoichi meets Yojimbo is the same character. So I have add a fact check tag to that paragraph. Marc29th (talk) 17:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The passage still (or again) says "This character resembles the title character of Akira Kurosawa's films Yojimbo and Sanjuro." Again, how? Persuade me not to remove that sentence. —Tamfang (talk) 05:05, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Blind Fury Film Genre

I edited the sentence about the american remake Blind Fury, that movie is no way an action-COMEDY !!!! Pure action, partly drama. -jailbirdt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.129.252.200 (talk) 10:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

It had a lot of comedic parts. Especially around Hauer and his interaction with the kid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.96.172.156 (talk) 00:00, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

date

One film has an opening caption that mentions Tenpō, if memory serves. Can someone confirm, so this can be mentioned in an appropriate place? —Tamfang (talk) 04:25, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

#6 begins with a visit to the grave of Kichizo who died two years ago; the stone is inscribed Tenpō 13-2-13. —Tamfang (talk) 05:15, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

English titles

• The English title is not a direct translation of the Japanese title.

User:Moocowsrule removed this note, saying, "That's completely irrelevant per WP:MOS-JP; the title should be the official English name."

I didn't find anything in WP:MOS-JP touching directly on this. Anyway I think Moocowsrule misses the point: the note is not urging that the English titles in the table be replaced by translations of the Japanese (though I'd like to see those translations in another column!) but merely warning against a natural misunderstanding on the part of those of us who do not understand Nihongo.

I'm reverting the deletion. Perhaps the note could be rephrased. —Tamfang (talk) 20:14, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

For what's worth, I agree both about the utility of the note and about the utility of literal translations (any volunteer?). Goochelaar (talk) 21:21, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

16, 19, huh?

“ The majority of the films were produced by Daiei Motion Picture Company: from the first film, Zatoichi's Story, to the 19th film, Zatoichi Samaritan. Toho Studios picked up where it had left off—the 16th film, Zatoichi the Outlaw—with the 20th film, Zatoichi and Yojimbo. ”

This sentence is puzzling. I guess it could mean that Toho pretended that #17-19 never happened and picked up the story as of the end of #16 (though I never noticed any story-lines continuing from one film to another). Who wrote it? Can you clarify? —Tamfang (talk) 05:12, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Not certain that is well-worded, but I would think well-understood. Firstly, read your history - it's all there, but it is included information on most DVD releases too.

Daiei Studios collapsed late 1960s. They made ZATOICHI 1-15 ONLY; 16 was produced by Katsu's own eponymous production company; 17-25 were made through Toho Studios but certain films were 'backed' by Toho and made through Katsu Productions. 26 was made by Katsu himself and produced by KP. It's that simple.

No one ever said the other movies 'didn't happen', and I hope the writing in this article will be more clear from now onward. A lot of work went into this article!75.21.155.245 (talk) 09:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

So nobody "left off" at #16 nor "picked up" at #20? —Tamfang (talk) 00:29, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Not sure I follow. Nobody ever left off the films until #25 was finished, and by then the TV series was also finished or on its last legs. So I can't really understand what you mean, because the Japanese system is everyone is one big family, and what are families but giant pecking orders? Djathinkimacowboy 10:14, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

What I mean is: the last sentence quoted above appears to be nonsense, and I'd like to have someone explain it or change it. —Tamfang (talk) 05:56, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

IMDb credits #1–15,17–19 to Daiei Motion Picture Company and/or Daiei Studios (is there any difference between these?); #16,21 to Daiei and Katsu Production Company; #20,23–25 to Katsu and Toho Company; #22 to Daiei, Golden Harvest Company (owner of the Chinese guest character), Katsu; the TV series and #26 to Katsu alone. —Tamfang (talk) 05:49, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

1989 film title

According to the Tokyo Shock DVD release, the title of the 1989 film is Zaotichi the Blind Swordsman whereas "darkness is his ally" is simply the promotional slogan. Thus I made this change.Desertpapa (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:31, 13 August 2011 (UTC).

The Tokyo Shock/Media Blasters release may have it as something a bit different, but the original release title in Japan, therefore the official name of this film, is ZATOICHI. Any inconsistency in the article will be rectified.75.21.155.245 (talk) 09:33, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

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"Zatoichi the Last", 2010

Since the Internet Movie Database (imdb) is not acceptable as a reference source here, and I myself can't find anything online to reference the actual release of this film, it's been tagged needing a citation. Perhaps a wiser editor will come round and fill that in, that missing ref. that I do not think is out there. Rotten Tomatoes - is that allowed here? - may have a review, and a review should count as proof to release of a film. I couldn't get the webpage at RT to work and saw nothing there. Djathinkimacowboy 06:47, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You could reference Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zatoichi:_The_Last

LOL, lame movie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.96.172.156 (talk) 00:02, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Zatoichi's style

We are having a problem with the precise art form for Zatoichi's sword. I Ai Do is always used and is acceptable per Wikipedia, but there seems to be a problem with this. Whilst assuming good faith, I'd like to call for assistance with anyone knowing the specific name of the form (holding the swordcane upside-down) with citation. But any further changes to that without a citation may be misinterpreted.Djathinkimacowboy^(yell) 15:50, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Excessive connective trivia

This section is connective trivia which doesn't tell us anything about Zatoichi. JoshuSasori (talk) 00:10, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

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trivia

Episode 3 of Ahsoka names the Jedi blind fighting training Zatoichi, likely referencing this character. 96.31.177.151 (talk) 06:28, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

curious paraphrase

... his tagline "Kurayami nara kotchi no mon da" (暗闇ならこっちのもんだ; roughly meaning "Darkness is my ally" or "Now we are all blind").

What does the phrase mean literally? Hard to imagine anything that could produce both these translations. —Tamfang (talk) 20:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Google Translate gives "If it's dark, it's here" – and "If it's darkness, it's the gate of childhood" for the rōmaji version. Hmm. —Tamfang (talk) 21:08, 23 March 2024 (UTC)