Talk:Karafuto Prefecture

October 2004 VfD

For an October 2004 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Karafuto Prefecture

prefecture

I'm still not comfortable calling it a prefecture, because it implies that it has similar standing with the other 47 prefectures in Japan, which it does not. Mike H 20:30, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Agreed, but for a different reason. It never had the same name as other prefectures; that's why I'd change it. Also, why stress it as a governmental unit only? The title "Karafuto" alone, without a following indicator of governmental status, would be fine by me. It's the Japanese term for the island of Sakhalin south of 50°, and encompasses present and former government, geography, history, present status etc. I favor moving. Fg2 21:35, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

How about "Karafuto Agency"? That's how Hokkaidō-chō is translated in the Hokkaido article Nik42 01:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

That might be a better title for this article. Also see last year's VfD debate (link is above). Fg2 01:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

at contrary at yours,in accord with my research with japanese friends and one ancient russian book,Karafuto are always japanese.i considered why the historically mention how Karafuto prefecture are adequate reme mbering of one injust situation,over russian illegaly possesion of one land why not pertaining at theirs.i understand why San Francisco treated,accord the Karafuto and Chisima occupation for Russians are temporary,no permanently and theirs debt to return these territoires to Japan in posterior times.lamentably Russians no belived this and considered why poseyed all rigths for annexed these lands in ilegall form.for this considered why these remembering are totally correct. wlad k 9:18,Feb 12,2005

The problem is that "Karafuto" (alone) is the Japanese name for the whole island of Sakhalin. "Karafuto+(prefecture, or some other term)" refers to the former Japanese administrative district on Sakhalin island ("Sakhalin south of 50°"). The present article

1. should keep the title Karafuto (Prefecture, or whatever), but
2. should also confine itself to that subject.

As it stands, it is (increasingly) concerning itself with the whole island of Sakhalin, making much of it an unnecesary duplication of the Sakhalin article. In particular, all those items noted as being "in Russian Sakhalin" should be moved to the Sakhalin article, and it would be much more informative if the map were to be one showing the limits of Karafuto (Prefecture) rather than, as at present, simply an outline of undivided Sakhalin. -- Picapica 10:59, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Redundant?

Reading this, much of the information is either copied wholesale or incredibly similar to the Sakhalin page. I suggest that the information here be reduced and crosslinked to reduce the redundancy. Bo-Lingua 17:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Name

The Ainu names (Karaputo, Karaftu, Kraftu) -- I'm assuming those are forms from different dialects... or are they merely different foreign transcriptions? Since I don't know for sure, I'm not changing this, but someone should really tell the readers what the different forms are all about. (I'm curious about the sources, too; as far as I can tell, Ainu does not allow initial kr- and I haven't heard of a dialect that uses /f/, although I suppose that could be from Japanese influence.)

Also, Tarrakai is "ancient French"? I find that unlikely -- one usually hears of Old French, not "ancient", and I don't think the French knew about Sakhalin or Japan when that was spoken. 24.159.255.29 04:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I forgot -- we should also mention that the name Karafuto comes originally from Ainu, not Japanese. 24.159.255.29 04:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the etymology given in the ==Name== section:

The Japanese name Karafuto purportedly comes from Ainu kamuy kar put ya mosir (カムィ・カㇻ・プッ・ヤ・モシㇼ) which means "the island a god has created on the estuary (of Amur River)".

(I have just added the word "purportedly" to that section.)

We have no attestation of this as coming originally from Ainu. All we have are Japanese sources that claim that this is from Ainu phrase kamuy kar put ya mosir (literally "god make river-mouth rock land"), but without providing any real clarity on the source.

See also the RFV (request for verification) thread at wikt:Talk:kamuy_kar_put_ya_mosir -- we could not find any attestation of this purported Ainu etymon, and thus deleted the term as unverifiable.

I feel like the text in the ==Name== section needs further reworking, but I am presently uncertain how best to rewrite. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:48, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Merge notice

The Karafuto prefecture article needs to be merged into this one and replaced with a redirect. Bendono 16:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Cheesemeister3k 03:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Prefectural Flag

Did Karafuto have its own prefectural flag, if so could someone please upload it?Duarcain (talk) 20:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I finally found the prefectural emblem, which I uploaded. Unlike emblems, however, most Japanese prefectures prepared their flags from 1960s, so it's likely Karafuto never had the local flag. On old pics of Karafuto, they almost always flew the national flag. Kzaral (talk) 04:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Removed

but did not approve Russian sovereignty over it. From Japan's official position, Sakhalin's attribution is not determined yet, and it is marked as no man's land on Japanese maps. As of 2005, the issue remains a major strain on Japanese-Russian relations.

This is incorrect. Although a final peace treaty has not been signed, Japan does not challenge the Russian sovereignty over Sakhlin. The dispute is over something else.

Roadrunner (talk) 19:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Removed again statement about japanese maps This is not supported by the website Roadrunner (talk) 18:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed statement about sovereignty not being transferred. The sovereignty of Karafuto was transferred by the Instrument of Surrender of Japan.

Roadrunner (talk) 19:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

No - the Instrument of Surrender of Japan did not automatically transfer sovereignty of Karafuto to the Soviet Union. In of itself, the Instrument makes no mention of territorial transfer, and neither the Potsdam Declaration nor the Cairo Declaration have specific reference to the future disposition of Karafuto. Under the terms of the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1951, Japan renounced all right, title and claim to the Kurile Islands and to Karafuto; however, the Soviet Union refused to sign the treaty; therefore the borders between Japan and Russia remain undetermined by treaty agreements. The Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs pamphlet on the Northern Territories issue depicts both the northern Kuriles and southern Sakhalin as no man's land pending a final peace treaty (http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/russia/territory/pamphlet.pdf) indicating that the official Japanese government viewpoint is that while Russia has de facto sovereignty over former Karafuto, de jure soverignty will not devolve to Russia until a final peace treaty is signed. --MChew (talk) 09:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

It's interesting that Russia does confirm there is a territorial dispute but does not indicate concrete facts or a position on the issue on its website. Here is an exceprt in Russian from the press conference with Sergey Lavrov and Katsuya Okada held on December 28, 2010: [1]. Basically, when asked about the issue of 4 islands, Lavrov does not single out the issue as a priority matter for bilateral relations. It sounds like something put on the back burner. Tuscumbia (talk) 21:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Fixed POV

In 1945, with the defeat of Japan in World War II, the Japanese administration in Karafuto ceased to function, and in 1951, at the Treaty of San Francisco, Japan renounced its rights to Sakhalin. Since that time, the southern part of Sakhalin has been occupied by Russia.

Considering that 99% of Sakhalin's population today are ethnic Russians, I doubt they feel very 'occupied' by their own country, sorry.

Changed it to:

In 1945, with the defeat of Japan in World War II, the Japanese administration in Karafuto ceased to function, and in 1951, at the Treaty of San Francisco, Japan renounced its rights to Sakhalin. Since that time, the southern part of Sakhalin has been a part of Russia.

--SergeiXXX (talk) 18:39, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Which brings up a good point and the whole reason I came to this article in the first place: how do the Japanese feel about losing this island? I'm rather curious if there has been any diplomatic effort by Japan to claim sovereignty over this island. Celynn (talk) 12:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)