Talk:Ninja

This page couldn’t be more wormy about the definition of a Shinobi. A Shinobi first and foremost can be a male or female. From there, their training was in all forms that were known to the public. IE- ninja and samurai. The shinobis also had their own art forms and disciplines. Being versed In antidotes and poisons is a simple example of this and why they were great choices to be assassins. They were also health experts and this is a main reason they were contracted as personal body guards for royalty. They were more formidable than a samurai and or ninja. They were and are considered the modern day CIA agents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.220.23 (talk) 04:32, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Stephen Turnbull

There are a lot of citations of Stephen Turnbull, and claims that he is a historian…
On what basis, is he considered a WP:RELIABLE?
On what basis, can he be claimed to be so much as even an amateur historian?
He has no more than a Masters degree in (no doubt European) military history, and has never published any peer-reviewed work. Certainly not peer-reviewed by any institution that specifically deals with Japanese military history. As such, the claim that he is a historian, is patently false. While he does his best to convince regular people, as well as documentary makers and the like, that he is the foremost expert on the subject, the actual experts in Japanese military history certainly do not have a high opinion of him.
Hence, he is clearly not WP:RS, and should generally not be used as a source. Any and all parts that are based on his words, should be removed. At least unless/until they can be verified by a real source.--213.113.123.236 (talk) 04:06, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

BTW… Even if one regards him as a reliable source, his previous writings should still be disregarded, given that he, in his latest book (2017 – Ninja: Unmasking the Myth Casemate Publishers. ISBN 978-1-47385-042-2), makes a very good case, that there has never been such a thing as real historical ninjas. That ninjas have never existed, at all. Have there been people, in Japan who engaged in spying or assassination? Sure. People whose profession was, or was mainly, spying or assassination? (and you don't do both. Assassinations ruin your spy-cover) Possibly …but people who were trained as professional spies/assassins? A special class of such people? There is zero evidence for it, anywhere. The earliest sources, are Edo era texts, that speak of things that supposedly happened centuries before they were written, with a lot of shinobu/shinobi- (sneaking/secretly) being mistranslated as "shinobi" (ninja). (such biased mistranslations being common, with earlier texts, as well) As for scouting, surprise attacks, night attacks, guerilla tactics, and the like… That was just standard warrior stuff, done to varying degrees, by all armies.--98.128.229.118 (talk) 13:38, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Turnbull does have a PhD. However, from what I've gathered his work prior to 2015ish often is somewhat questionable. He relies on literary sources, doesn't always credit sources, and sometimes makes significant mistakes. He's still going to be mostly correct and he's one of the most accessible sources. His latest book on ninja, from 2017, and the 2014 article on the same subject, corrects a lot of mistakes he made in his previous books on ninja.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:25, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

The Bansenshūkai, Shōninki, and Ninpiden.

Whilst these three texts are significant and important, in the history of the image and views of the ninja…
It should be noted that none of the texts are seen as reliable by experts, their authorship is questionable, and there are no extant originals. (only copies …which have notable differences)

Also, the Bansenshūkai, even according to the text itself, is written long after the things it described supposedly existed and were done. The Shōninki notably mainly just speaks of espionage. The one thing that no one would dispute that ninjas did. As for the Ninpiden, the dating of the document is disputed, with several proposed dates (1560, 1655, 1733…), and the general academic consensus being that it is a complete work of fiction created in 1733 and deliberately falsely dated and falsely attributed in order to provide provenance and increase it’s value.--213.113.123.236 (talk) 05:24, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Secrets of the samurai: a survey of the martial arts of feudal Japan

Oscar Ratti clearly has no relevant degrees or qualifications. What qualifications does Adele Westbrook have? What makes their book a WP:Reliable source? (I would suggest taking a look at the other books, as well. Anyone can write a book. That doesn't mean that the information is, in any way, accurate or reliable)--213.113.123.236 (talk) 05:27, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Thomas A. Green doesn't have any relevant qualifications, either… Can't be bothered to check through more, though.--213.113.123.236 (talk) 05:35, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Just curious... please correct me if I'm wrong.

First off I do like the way this keeps to the bulk of the traditional data on the "Shadow Warriors" but what about the full origin of the Shinobi? These are just a few examples iv come to learn in my research.

Example: Nin initially meant "persevere," but over time it developed the extended meanings "conceal" and "move stealthily." In Japanese, ja is the combining form of sha, meaning "person."

Then there is the Samurai. 

Don't get me wrong, the Bushido Codex and the ones charged to uphold said code were warriors in every sense of the word but not all of them were honorable. Actually the Shinobi were actually created because of the way the Samurai (not all of them) were treating the farmers and villages. It was brutal.. over taxing, rape, murder if they don't comply with their terms etcetera. Why do you think the Shinobi's weapons look so much like tweaked farm equipment??

They had to fight back against these appalling,and I'm my eyes, poor excuse for Samurai. Again, not all were like this but this was going on far more than you may think. Also this depends on who the Samurai were being led by of course and then you need to take into account the Ronin (Wandering Samurai) or to put it another way, Samurai without a Lord.

Ninjuitsu is one of my favorite styles because of the strategy and tactics they used. It was few versus many and the Samurai were extremely skilled and armed with blades made from Tamahagane that could literally cut through other blades depending on the number of folds in the shaping of the Tamahagane. Even still the people fought back for their land and loved ones.

Yes they had been given a bad reputation and alot of truths from this point in time were either held back manipulated or destroyed because they weren't just going to just sit back and let power hungry and greedy "leaders" walk all over their people.

There far more to this of course but this just just a small piece of a far larger story that I truly hope will come to light once again. AP -100101 (talk) 15:48, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

"A Ninja" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect A Ninja and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 6#A Ninja until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 17:36, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

"Ninja abilities" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Ninja abilities and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 6#Ninja abilities until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 17:40, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

"Onmitsu" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Onmitsu and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 6#Onmitsu until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 17:49, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Ninja power

Shoot 27.255.58.198 (talk) 15:32, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

New article about ninja from Asahi Shimbun

I thought it might prove useful. See here. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:31, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Modern ninja

I very much liked the after information and openions. If I might say, there modern ninja no longer (active ones) wear the traditional inform we are used to. Most times they look like Bob at work or the guitarist in a punk band covered in tattoos. Other times in California or black with pnvg18 night vision, body armor, and a suppressed m416. Or even like Bob. Just half a mile away with a "pst" precision sniper rifle, from the back of a farm room. Governments love them(OGA) and use them. Often. 2601:14D:4E80:44D0:6865:F4EF:A3A9:B626 (talk) 01:25, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

"Ren" / "nin" means "one who SNEAKS"? LOL

Who the hell put that there??? "lit. one who is concealed" "lit. one who sneaks".

No.

Those words mean "one who endures" -- is patient, endures, suffers through it etc.

Feels like some random non-native speaking American ninja fanboys added those creative interpretations. Pretty joke -- ask any other native reader what they mean please. 12.17.209.82 (talk) 22:02, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Ninja

es gibt unzählige Bücher, Zeitschriften und Comics wo Ninjas vorkommen. es gibt auch sehr viele Sachen für Kinder. es gibt ganz viel doch woher soll ich wissen was richtig ist. ist alles hier so genau? stimmt es das die Ninjas mit den Samurai Kriegern krieg geführt haben. Stimmt es das es Heute noch einen Großmeister gibt. Woher will man das alles wissen wen man nicht selber mit einem Ninja gesprochen hat. Viele Informationen werden stimmen, aber wenn die Ninjas so bekannt sind dann sind es ja auch keine Unbekannten Krieger. es gibt so 3 Sätze die die Ninjas immer befolgt haben sollen Und das ist: Sei wie die Natur, Folge der Natur, benutze die Natur. Ich habe in 2 tagen ein ganzes buch über die Ninjas gelesen. Jetzt könnte ich ein Ganzes buch mit fragen schreiben. Wenn sie antworten haben bitte sofort schreiben.

No mention of Katori Shinto ryu?

Hi, that venerable old school had ninjutsu, ie., field recconnaissance, on its curriculum; see the article. T 84.208.65.62 (talk) 05:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2024

attemped = attempted

attempetd = attempted

2603:8000:D300:3650:2C70:EB41:AC94:8EE8 (talk) 04:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 04:45, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2024

The first paragraph has several grammatical errors where two sentences were poorly recombined.

They often employed in siege espionage missions, and Military deception,.[1] They were often appeared in the historical records during the Sengoku period,[2] antecedents may have existed as early as the 12th century.[3][4]

Should read

They were often employed in siege, espionage missions, and military deception. They often appear in the historical record during the Sengoku period, though antecedents may have existed as early as the 12th century. Shmiggle (talk) 21:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done – see Special:Diff/1234587661. Thanks! DanCherek (talk) 04:03, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Should I include it in the article?

Martial arts

According to the candidate of Sciences of history expert on Japan A. M. Gorbyleva (Russian: А. М. Горбылев) ninja used common to Japan martial arts, but their martial arts differed from samurai schools (in connection with the tactics). Techniques Martial arts ninja was adaptation for surprise attacks (night, ambush, in the back) and for small space (thicket bush in the forest, low corridors and small room locks). Ninja also tried to avoid open battlefield with a numerically superior enemy forces, therefore their technique was adapted to stun the enemy and escape in case of failure. :ru:Список русскоязычных японистов#Г

References

• Turnbull, Stephen (2003), Ninja AD 1460–1650, Osprey Publishing, ISBN 978-1-84176-525-9
• Gorbylev, Alexey (2001), Claws invisible Weapons and equipment ninja, Harvest, ISBN 985-13-0612-6 {{citation}}: External link in |title= (help)
• Gorbylev, Alexey (2002), Way invisible The true story of ninjutsu, Harvest, ISBN 985-13-0621-5 {{citation}}: External link in |title= (help)

author: Алексей Михайлович Горбылев. name: Путь невидимых. Подлинная история нин-дзюцу. head: О школах «нин-дзюцу». page: 25 Vyacheslav84 (talk) 11:01, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2024

Change "15 century" to "15th century" in the sentence below:

"Ninja gained notability as hired mercenaries during the 15 century to use many asymetrical warfare tactics such as scoutings, raidings, arsonists and even terrorism." ShadowEraze (talk) 22:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

 Fixed Left guide (talk) 23:24, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Section of “Tactics” that makes no sense.

"In his Buke Myōmokushō, military historian Hanawa Hokinoichi writes of the ninja that they travelling in disguise into foreign territories to scout and enemy forces and setting enemy castle on fire attack, carrying assassinations, and Infiltration tactics. " what is this gibberish? 162.84.178.122 (talk) 21:09, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Serious issues with punctuation, capitalization, repetitiveness, and evident ESL text

Large sections of the article have poor punctuation and capitalization. Then, there is much information that is reiterated excessively; the text has poor cohesion. Most importantly, many sections were clearly written by a person whose native language is not English, as evidenced by repeated and serious grammar mistakes. I corrected what I could but there is still a lot of fixing to be done. Ale rc310 (talk) 23:52, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Man'yoshu

The quoted poem in the man'yoshu (note 12) is : 万代に / 心は解けて / 我が背子が / 捻みし手見つつ / 忍びかねつも (into the Vol. 17 of the man'yoshu). Please complete this note 12. 2A01:E0A:A36:1630:A88D:1D8:F5B:5BE7 (talk) 18:44, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Mass revisions due to false COPYVIO claims

Hello, I wrote almost all of this article 15 years ago. I'm no longer really interested in the subject, but I noticed a few months ago there were mass rewrites to this article prompted by a plagiarism detection tool.

This is a false positive. The tool is detecting other sites copying from this article, NOT the other way around. A disclaimer on the tool clearly warns that it only searches for similarities with other sites, not precedence. I wrote nearly everything on this page in 2009 with very little paraphrasing from the sources. That version of the article has remained largely the same since 2009, meaning it predates many of the sites that the plagiarism tool detected. There is no way this is a WP:COPYVIO case.

The rewrite was done in flawed, non-native English and is not an improvement. If there are no objections, I'd like to restore the article to its state before these false plagiarism claims. - Karasuma (talk) 19:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)