Talk:National Mall

Proposal to replace map images with map templates

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Example {{OSM Location map}} of west of the National Mall proper

I suggest we replace some of these map images like File:National mall (east) satellite image.jpg and File:Constitution gardens satellite image.jpg with a map template like Template:Maplink or Template:OSM Location map (see example at right). I realize that these images were probably posted several years before these map templates were implemented, but now it's no longer helpful when we list several landmarks that are "not marked on the above image". Zzyzx11 (talk) 19:20, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Since no one has commented so far, I have been bold and added it. Zzyzx11 (talk) 02:45, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

@Zzyzx11: You have been too bold. Your maps and legends occupy half of the width of the article's page. This creates difficulties in reading the article's text.

Further, one of your maps does not immediately show up on the page, leaving an open space with some isolated markers until the map finally appears. Additionally, your maps and the legends below are so large that they disrupt the article.

Please therefore edit the article to place the maps side by side and make them smaller. If a map does not immediately show up in the article page when you open the article, delete the map. Then restore the satellite images that you removed and the numbered lists beneath the images, as they provide readers with useful aerial images of the Mall.

Most importantly, please recognize that the article already contains a map of the Mall. Your maps are therefore redundant.

There is really no need for any additional maps, especially those that occupy so much space that they completely disrupt the text. It appears best to remove your maps and their legends unless you can find a way to make them more compact and can justify the need for two sets of maps that convey the same information. Thank you. Corker1 (talk) 08:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Your maps and legends occupy half of the width of the article's page. This creates difficulties in reading the article's text.

one of your maps does not immediately show up on the page

They load up ASAP on my end. Could be your browser, screen size and platform? Template:OSM Location map is used on a number of articles (per Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:OSM_Location_map) so if many of them also load slowly for you on those articles, I do not think that should immediately disqualify their use here. I have nevertheless re-positioned and resized the maps here.

... please recognize that the article already contains a map of the Mall. Your maps are therefore redundant.

The same "redundant" argument could also be basically said about using the File:National mall (east) satellite image.jpg and File:Constitution gardens satellite image.jpg satellite maps. Again, my original problem is that it's also unhelpful to readers listing a bunch of landmarks as "not marked on the above image", especially some of the newer landmarks like the National Museum of African American History and Culture, or not even mentioning the Jamie L. Whitten/Dept. of Agriculture Building (per the August 2019 discussion above). Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:12, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Even if some have slow loading issues with these interactive maps, there are probably also many readers that would prefer them over something that is over a decade old, does not include the African American History and Culture Museum, or the lengthy wording that User:Alanscottwalker suggested above about the unmarked Jamie L. Whitten-Dept. of Agriculture Building. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (talk) 04:13, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

@Zzyzx11: There is still far too much empty space beneath your maps. Therefore, restore the appearance of the page to the one that exited before you made your edits. Restore the columns that separated the groups of legends that existed before you added your maps. Use the images that you placed in the gallery beneath the images to fill in all remaining empty spaces on the right side of the page, as they existed before you added your maps.

Some of your maps do not provide scales that measure distances in miles or yards, but instead measure the same distance with two different measures in meters (m) (such as 750 m and 820 m for the map of the National Mall (proper). If you are not able to correct the distances and to provide all measures in United States customary units (as well as in metric units, if desired), the maps will be unreliable and therefore unsuitable for use in this article.

The satellite images that you removed contain views of landscaping (rows of trees, paths, streets, etc.) and buildings that maps cannot replace and that largely remain relevant. Please therefore restore those images. To eliminate the need for a set of legends that reflect the numbers in the images, please re-number the features on your map to make them identical with those in the satellite images.

In addition, do not add information (such as information about the Jamie L. Whitten Building's presumed lack of intent for use by the general public) unless cited references describe that information. That type of information is original research, which Wikipedia prohibits (see WP:NOR). Corker1 (talk) 02:03, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

If you are not able to correct the distances and to provide all measures in United States customary units (as well as in metric units, if desired), the maps will be unreliable and therefore unsuitable for use in this article

As I understand it, this currently appears to be a technical limitation of Template:OSM Location Map. Since you object to this (while it currently seems perfectly fine for some of the Wikipedia Featured Articles like Construction of Rockefeller Center#Site and Stonewall riots#Stonewall Inn), I have reverted back. I cannot help if you object to a feature that is currently used on several current Wikipedia Featured Articles. I assume you have acted in good faith, but I do not have the time or patience to debate you here. The page stats do show that you are by far the primary contributor here. But it also seems to me that you have exhibited the atypical behavior of that type of person, even if you may not be aware of it, such as your frequent reactions regarding layout and image use throughout this talk page. I usually try to avoid dealing with pages with similar situations. There are other C-Class rated articles I could improve instead of this one. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (talk) 02:28, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

@Zzyzx11:Thank you for reverting your edits. I have added the Jamie L. Whitten Building to the list of features in the section of the article entitled "National Mall proper". The National Park Service's official definition of the limits of the National Mall exclude this building from the Mall. However, as both you and Alanscottwalker believe that the building should appear in the list of features that are within the National Mall (proper), I have placed the building in that list.

This article was rated as C-Class before I began to edit it in 2010. Neither I nor any other editor has requested a reclassification, as far as I am aware. The article will therefore retain its C-Class rating until somebody requests a change. You may wish to request a change to whatever rating you believe is appropriate, if you so desire.

A number of other editors have also revised this article over the years, sometimes in significant ways. For example, an editor once addressed the issue of compactness and made a revision that improved this. This remains an important consideration.

Please note that neither Construction of Rockefeller Center#Site and Stonewall riots#Stonewall Inn) exhibit the results of the technical limitation in Template:OSM Location Map. The scales on the maps in both of these Featured Articles show distances in both yards and meters. However, this may not be true for some other Featured Articles, as editors or raters may have failed to recognize the results of the limitation.

I suggest that you monitor the Template:OSM Location Map. If editors fix the technical limitation, you may wish to replace the outdated existing map in this article with maps that you create using that template. If you do this, please be sure to maintain the article's compactness.

Thank you for your efforts to improve this article. I do appreciate these. Corker1 (talk) 17:52, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

It's understandable why it happens over the life of an article, but maps that are demonstrably out-of-date or partial should look to be replaced, otherwise the usefulness and continuing quality of the article is impaired. (I too think that we need a map that at least include a major "new" institution like the NMAAHC.) But at current, imo, the map most in need of replacement is the partial west map, linked here: Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:58, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker: The "partial west map" that you cited is an April 22, 2002, satellite image, not a map. The only outdated feature in the image is that of the site of the World War II Memorial (No. 3). The text beneath the image explains that the Memorial was under construction at the time. As this is a satellite image that shows such features as trees and other landscaping, it conveys historical information.

Map of the National Mall and vicinity (2008)

When a more current satellite image becomes available in Wikimedia, the image should be replaced. No such image is presently available.

The 2008 map of the National Mall and vicinity (linked here), which is at the top of the article's section entitled Landmarks, museums, and other features, identifies the site of the completed World War II Memorial (No. 42). Readers can presently find the Memorial on that map.

The External links section of the article contains an active link to a current National Park Service webpage entitled Maps of the National Mall and vicinity. Readers can therefore see a current map of the Mall by clicking on that link. Corker1 (talk) 03:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

The partial out-of-date satellite image not only serves no useful purpose it makes the section look unintelligible -- this is not even the history section of the article. Rather, it makes the features section look unfinished, unkempt, and uncared for half-baked worse-than-immature mess. It does not even cover the area the image in that section needs to cover, and if, as you claim there is no need for an up-to-date information, that would only further make the presence of this worse than useless image indefensible. And no, it should definitely not be replaced with another partial satellite image of the partial area, that would only perpetuate the poor editorial presentation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 03:21, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker: In response to your comment above, I have added to the article a 2002 satellite image of the western part of the National Mall and West Potomac Park, together with explanatory legends that identify the features in the image. This increases the number of features within the Mall and its surroundings that satellite images show. I have also made editorial changes that more clearly show that the map and satellite images are not current.

I agree that a current map or satellite image would be a desirable addition to the article. However, none are presently available on Wikimedia. The maps that Zzyzx11 created had defects in their scales that made them unusable.

The External links section of the article formerly contained a link to a National Park Service (NPS) web page that contained two different types of maps of the National Mall. I have replaced that link with a link to a web page that contains the NPS map that is most relevant to the article. Readers can click on that link to access a current map of the Mall if they want to see one.

The NPS map is in the public domain. If you wish to improve the article, you can add that map to Wikimedia Commons and to the article. Corker1 (talk) 14:44, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Caption?

The Victorian landscaping and architecture of the Mall loooking east from the top of the Washington Monument, showing the influence of the Downing Plan on the National Mall. Train tracks leading to a shed cross the Mall behind the Arts and Industry Building, the Army Medical Center and the Armory (circa 1904)

The caption at right seems unclear or a non-sequitur. First, why are the practically invisible train tracks even mentioned, instead of the much more visible structures? Second, what do the train tracks have to do with Downing's Plan? Did Downing plan the train tracks? Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:26, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Mall's slight deviation from east-west alignment

Any of the experts have a substantiated explanation that could be put here? Wegesrand (talk) 11:26, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

In popular culture

Forrest Gump while having a scene take place at the National Mall is incorrectly stated to have take place during the 1963 March on Washington. Based on prior events earlier in the film, it is more likely to have taken place at a later date closer to the year of 1967. 57.140.28.9 (talk) 17:57, 17 November 2023 (UTC)