Talk:Borscht

Draft:Slavic sour soups

I've created this draft. Anyone should feel free to go work on that and ping me when you feel it's ready to move to article space and we can adjust the section in this article.

FTR, I am not comfortable with this citation style, so please especially look at that and remove or adjust as necessary. Valereee (talk) 12:15, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much! 109.252.71.81 (talk) 00:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Serious ideas:

1. Add "History" section - "precursors" and "diversification"
2. Add a link to shchi (also a sour slavic soup) and cabbage soup (used to desribe kapustnica Slavic soup)
3. Add the Slavic words and make a mention those words are similar to "borscht" but lack that Yiddish "-t" addition.

2A00:1370:81A2:4024:F019:8B4C:4D62:B9FC (talk) 23:56, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Probably best discussed at Draft talk:Slavic sour soups. Valereee (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

There isn't a "t addition". That is misinformation propagated by a certain frequent contributor to this page, who claims that Yiddish "borscht" is a loan from Ukrainian "borsh". It isn't, it's from Russian "borshch"; this sound "shch" isn't found in Yiddish so it's simplified to "borscht".Essence of nightshade (talk) 23:06, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

You don't know what you're talking about because the word in both Ukrainian and Russian ends with Щ. And since the potential sources' base forms are identical, it doesn't really matter whether you say that Yiddish "modified" the final Щ to "scht" or added a final "t" to "sch" (German spelling of [ʃ]). But in terms of spelling, common English generally uses "sch" to transliterate Cyrillic Щ, so when you compare a transliterated "borsch" to "borscht" what do you have? You add a "t". (I'm not talking about "official", ISO-approved transliteration, but the common, unofficial transliterations that the average speaker of English [or German/Yiddish] sees in print.) --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 14:04, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I guess the question is when was Щ simplified to sounding like Ш where? The reason I looked at this is – and maybe I've misinterpreted you – that it seemed to play a role in your argument that Borscht is uniquely Ukrainian rather than also Russian. I saw a few folks suggest that Yiddish borrowed it from Polish, which a priori would make a ton of sense but I don't really know. I think it's important to nail this down.

"But in terms of spelling, common English generally uses "sch" to transliterate Cyrillic Щ."

No, see Nikita Krushchev.Essence of nightshade (talk) 21:41, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

English speakers interpret the syllable border in "Krushchev" as "Krush - chev". There is no such break within borscht. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Still, "Sh-Ch" is derived from a single Russian Щ.81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:11, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Which is important for technical transliteration, but is usually unknown and unimportant to the average English speaker. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:27, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Please don't try this "speaking for everyone" stance using your sole personal experience... that smells of WP:OR. Please bring some... evidence to show it's somewhere on par with "their vs there" issue. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 11:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Two my cents: sch in a word makes it look like the word refers to something from Deutschland. Not that it is really meaningful... 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

• As for "almost the 1st of September", I just want to say: an article on Slavic sour soups could a mention of... suddenly... a vegetable which used to be known as "borshch polevoy" but now is known in Russian as "pasternak" (not to be confused with the surname). Context... found in a XIX century dictionary: "Толковый словарь живого великорусского языка Владимира Даля": "Пастерна́к м. пустарна́к, раст. Pastinaca, полевой борщ, поповник, козелки́, ствольё." You can see the scan here, on Wikisource. Interesting.

(Yes, I am still after the mystery of what's "borshch" used to be in Russian imperial cuisine; parting ways with "BorschT qua borschT" question, because Borscht Belt). 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:11, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Featured Article review needed?

This article does seems to have deteriorated. Pinging Kpalion, Ian Rose, Edwininlondon, Nikkimaria, Piotrus, Sainsf, Casliber. Valereee (talk) 15:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok, just seen this. Someone needs to quantify and list specific problems and we can work from there. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee Mind elaborating on how it deterioratd? I see some unreferenced content; pinging non-IP editors who added it (rewrote it... WRT is not perfect): Kpalion has been pinged already; @TaivoLinguist. Errr, that's about it. From what I can tell, 80% of unreferenced content has been added by IPs) in the last 2-3 years, 15% by Kpalion c. 2015-2016, and maybe 5% by TavioLinguist (in the etymology and at the very end?). If nobody cares to reference it, we can probably just remove all unreferenced content citing WP:V, there's not much of it. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

A tag has been placed in the lead stating there is no evidence for its use in orthodox rituals. It is mentioned in body of text but would be good to discuss before removing tag as am not familiar myself. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:52, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

This sentence Sometimes, borscht can be found as barszcz (a Polish word for 'borscht') or borshch (transliteration of Cyrillic "борщ"), although these are still foreign words in English and not natively used. - if these spelling variants have been not uncommonly seen/used, would be worth citing them but I suspect they are pretty rare (???) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:54, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

For me, with food, the issues of similar-names-but-different-foods and of similar-foods-but-different-names, especially when complicated by transliteration, are always a question. Sometimes even sources that are digitalized and can be machine-translated don't help. Sauces get translated into dips, soups or even stews, for instance. And with the names of food dishes, you always get into gastronationalism issues: if in Bulgaria it's called борш and is rendered in English as borsh, by God we have to include borsh. My default setting on things like barszcz and borshch and borsh is to include if we can find a citation, until/unless the sheer number of those inclusions becomes a negative. Which, no surprise, whenever we approach the Balkans it often does. :D Valereee (talk) 11:03, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey, @Piotrus, thanks for coming in. Yes, it's partially the additions by IPs over the past few years, and it's a little complicated by the fact many of these additions/changes are for terms that are transliterated and quite a few seem to be for dishes with some sort of name similarity but which really aren't what we mean in English by "borscht", which is a sour soup with beets as the primary ingredient. Plus I think basically the entire 'Namesakes without beets section' could be spun off (drafted at Draft:Slavic sour soups), as other than the various gastronationalistic edits it seems to have attracted much of the attention.

I have no objection to simply removing what's not cited. I guess that leaves us with checking any unreverted additions to make sure we catch any that were added in front of a ref, making it look like they are sourced? Sorry for my ignorance here, there just aren't that many food-related FAs that draw heavy POV editing, so I haven't done this before. Is there some easier way to do that instead of simply checking each diff so see if it included a source, and if it didn't, checking the source to see if it supports the assertion? Valereee (talk) 10:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee It's an interseting topic but not something I am very familiar with, sadly. I'll just note for now that żur is sometimes known in Poland as "white borscht" (it has no beets). And yes, for most folks, borscht means a red beet soup, of course. I support creation of Slavic sour soups article, which could be linked from here, żur, and like. (But, borscht is not sour... IMHO it's sweet? Żur is sour, yes). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:07, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Sour basically refers to the fact it often contains some fermented or pickled ingredient. The beets themselves are sweet, but borscht is often made from preserved (traditionally that means pickled or fermented, which are types of preservation that can easily and safely be done at home without a pressure cooker) beets. When borscht is made from fresh or canned beets, in modern recipes some sour ingredient (like whey or pickled beet juice) is often called for to get the tangy flavor, but a modern borscht is probably much sweeter than what you'd have eaten every day with brown bread a few hundred years ago. Valereee (talk) 11:20, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

And, hm, on zur. I'm wondering if Sour cereal soup and Draft:Slavic sour soups are actually the same thing? @TaivoLinguist? Valereee (talk) 12:15, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

+1 to that question; didn't know there's an article on zur-like Slavonic soups. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 11:54, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

OK, serious answer. That article is bad, because there was a separate article on "zur". BUT! Sour cereal soup is related to the soups from the "diversification" part in general, not just 1 variant of zur. Feel free to grab that article (I would restore "zur" article with all the interlinks in the meantime). 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:07, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

NONONONONONONONO! Don't mix moden beet borscht with ancient soups we happen to know via XI Xcentury books, such as Podarok molodym khozaikam. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:3FDA:1D04:A236:18DA (talk) 19:35, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

>Sour basically refers to the fact it often contains some fermented or pickled ingredient.

>often

>often

No. It HAS a sour TASTE. What you try to descrive is a soup merely reminiscent of Slavonic sour soups via some wonky ingridien'. OK, fine. Once I have the time, I will enrich you draft on "Slavic" sour soups with the information you need to stop confusing borSCHT with the actual soups of the ancient Slavs. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:3FDA:1D04:A236:18DA (talk) 19:37, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I appear to have touched a nerve. :) IP, please do enrich the draft. I'm always interested in the history of foods. Valereee (talk) 23:26, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

1t's OK, thanks for the emotional support :) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:12, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh, it wasn't for me. As for the enriching, I would like to "overflow" the draft with extra information on how the beet borscht belongs to the {a;R;r;A;y} of Slavonic sour soups first. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

UPDATE: turns out, they used to call parsnips "polevoy borshch". (see my comment in "draft:Slavic sour soups") 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Профессор кислых щей ПИНГ!!! 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:13, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

When I wrote the article back in 2016, I used a broad definition: borscht is everything that gets called "borscht", "borshch", "barszcz" or something similar in any language, which meant that almost any sour soup could be included in that definition. Under this approach, the beet borscht is the best known among many variaties of borscht. But now I think that a different approach might work better: to employ a narrower definition where borscht is always red and always contains beets. The "Namesakes without beets", "Precursors" and "Diversification" subsections could then be moved to an expanded "Etymology" section (perhaps renamed to something like "Origin and variants of the name"), which would focus on the evolution of the word "borscht" and what it may refer to in languages other than English. The rest of the article would only deal the beet borscht. — Kpalion^(talk) 12:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Disagree per, quote, "this is ENGLISH Wikipedia". The etymology in English - "borSCHT" - is Yiddish and this explains why the brew known in Polish as barszcz ukrainsky that is soup of Borscht Belt.

• As for the brew of Russian cuisine, I would assume "борщ" should have been shchi svekolnye all along. The key difference is, not many Russians add sour stuff into the brew (since Russian smetana is not really sour; it's somewhat sweet, even).

81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:01, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Disagree with what? — Kpalion^(talk) 22:07, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

When I first arrived at this article it was pretty straightforward--beet-based borscht as known in the English-speaking world that originated in Ukraine. Then after 2014, some real-world events began the process of IP edit warring over the origin, the nature, and the name. Thankfully it has quieted down over the past year. I heartily agree that the sour Slavic soups that may or may not have names related etymologically to "borscht" and often contain no beets should have their own article. My wife is Ukrainian so I don't know anything about those soups and appreciate the work that has gone into the draft article. The draft that I last looked at was ready to publish as far as I could tell. I also agree that in the English Wikipedia, all those Slavic transliterations that aren't actually words in English don't belong here and just clutter it up. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 09:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

>Then after 2014, some real-world events began the process of IP edit warring over the origin, the nature, and the name.

• Fun fact: a number of "борщ"-related news articles published here in Russia have attracted my attention to the problem of борщ indeed. I was thinking about the part where there are several slavic sour soups which are united under "борщ" umbrella term; and got met with the idea of borscht qua borscht by TaivoLinguist. Hope I will have some time to finish the "Slavic sour soups" draft to line up some distinct differences obvious to a Slav yet not visible to a person thousand kilometers away.

TL;DR: I had had this very "SOMEONE'S WRONG ON THE INTERNET" moment before I took the time to edit the article. It is waaaay to large to quickly skim thru. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:23, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

>Thankfully it has quieted down over the past year.

• U R welkom komrad 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:23, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

A little edit request on the 29th of August, 2024

Add "Sour cereal soup" to the "similar dishes" category of the infobox. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

It's already there as white borscht, which redirects to sour cereal soup. Valereee (talk) 12:52, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm... What about How about "white borscht (sour cereal soup)" then? 81.89.66.133 (talk) 11:50, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

It's already linked. We could change it, but we typically don't "fix" pipes, which we consider to be WP:NOTBROKEN. Is there some reason you think we should be using sour cereal soup instead of white borscht when they mean the same thing? Valereee (talk) 14:17, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTBROKEN is a good argument, let it be. Thanks for your time. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Botvinya is a word in Russian for an kind of beet soup

In short: botvinya is (more like "was" though) a word in Russian for an kind of soup, and it was commonly made with beets. I guess this is the dish that was already ubiquitous in Russian Empire before it was re-labelled as borscht.

Full story: I remember now. In Russian, there is a rare word for a beet soup with leaves. The word for it is "botvinnik" "botvinya". And the word for the leaves plucked from vegetables - beets or not - is "botva" in Russian.

Thing is, "botvinnik" botvinya beet soup was a common thing in Russia ever since, whenever it was labelled "borscht" or had its "botvinya" name. And, I GUESS, it is not related to the "ancient hogweed soup" since it's not about souring the soup, it's about the "botva", e.g. plucked leaves from growing vegetables.

• The kicker is, this word nowadays belongs to the dictionary of forgotten words: see ISBN 978-5-98986-208-5
• And an additional kicker is, the soup was believed to be a "zakuska", a small dish.

I think that explains the mystery why beet soups are so common in Russia all while everyone refers to the soups using the same name that is used for borscht. The "botvinnik botvinya ---> borshch" renaming could have taken place somewhere in the USSR, which is relativly easy to write off as "some writers' mix-up".

Thought it could have been an intersting trivia for future years of disputes, whether borscht-as-a-dish is "stolen" or not.

Anyway, I am about to abandon my Wikipedia procrastination so you may not hear from me soon. Goodbye. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2024

remove Czech from Associated cuisine 109.81.165.109 (talk) 10:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 22:12, 4 November 2024 (UTC)