Talk:Tigranes the Great

Comment

In the section "HALLEY'S COMET", instead of "according to the Armenian and Italian researchers" should be written the correct information and the journal reference, namely: "according to V.G.Gurzadyan and R.Vardanian, "Astronomy & Geophysics, Journal of Royal Astronomical Society, London, vol. 45 (4, August), p.4.06, 2004; http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0405073

Question

Why is this ruler called Tigranes I in Wikipedia, when the books I've been reading call him Tigranes II? Is this because he was the first Tigranes to rule the Seleucid empire, but not the first to rule Armenia? Does anyone know? Isomorphic 03:17, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Answer

Because it's a mistake. Tigrane II is the only one known in History to rule the Seleucid empire, but not the first to rule Armenia, that's why he is called I by some people. But Tigrane The Great is Tigrane II.

In regards to recent edits by Azeri Turkish editors

The following passage from Iranica clarifies on their evident confusion:

The Armenian historical tradition (found chiefly in Ps.-Movsês Xorenac'i) represented the earlier, national Artaxiads and the Armenian Arsacids as their direct continuation, creating thus an imbroglio from the effects of which Armenian historiography has only recently succeeded in freeing itself. A list of the Arsacid kings of Armenia will be found at the end of this article. http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/ashkanian/arsacid_armenia.htm --Eupator 19:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

In regards to ethnic Armenian editors' confusion

It seems like some confuse Arsacid/Arsakuni dynasty with Artaxiads. Of course, Tigranes II Great was an Artaxiad, and was ethnic Armenian. Secondly, one article cannot disprove tonnes of references and writings by all relevant Armenian chroniclers, as well as ancient Byzantin historians and modern Armenian scholars. --AdilBaguirov 05:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I have to respectfully disagree – the medieval chroniclers are important if they are properly translated and edited, have substantial commentaries by modern day scholars, and coincide with what several other contemporary and modern sources say. And the information about Tigranes II Great being ethnic Armenian is fully in accordance and compliance with these requirements and standards. In fact, as I said, in Armenian schools, at least universities, they do teach about Parthian ethnicity of Tigranes II and all other rulers of Armenia from his dynasty, as well as about all the other Armenian dynasties (a separate topic of discussion). Thus it is surprising to witness the reaction. Of course, they were still kings of Armenia, and very often ruling dynasties were not of the same ethnicity as majority of the population -- e.g., Russia, India, China, etc.

It should be noted that Agatangelos, the very first historian of Armenia, was also Armenian, and not Greek.

5) Finally, there are two non-Armenian medieval chroniclers, one Byzantine Procopius of Caesarea, who wrote in 560 AD, and the other Jewish chronicler, Joseph Flavius (37-100 AD):

http://www.miriobiblion.narod.ru/prokopij/p_aed3.htm

КНИГА ТРЕТЬЯ [43]

Gentlemen, I have protected the page because of the slow edit warring that was going on. I would suggest that you discuss the issue here. Provide reliable sources (just a name is not enough, cite the boook, article or what ever in detail) for you claims and counter claims. Just inserting and removing stuff is not going to work, and is very annoying. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I have provided all the sources on this talk page already -- what else do you need? Even one such source is enough -- and I've provided almost a dozen, with URLs, all from either Armenian, or Jewish, or Byzantim, or Soviet-Russian sources. If the Armenian editor dislikes this, it is not grounds to ignore this well-known evidence. Once again, upon the first request I've already provided all the references and one has to simply follow those links to verify it. Thus, my edit has to be restored. --AdilBaguirov 22:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, here's the English translation of the selected sentences from the Russian-language sources I've provided before:

1) Flavius Josephus (37-100 AD), "Jewish War", Book I, Chapter 18.

"After a certain time, Anthony appeared from Parthian march, he carried with himself the captured [POW] son of Tigran, Artavazd, as a gift to Cleopatra, so along that with all the treasure and the whole bounty to her, the Armenian was also given."

The Armenian website (http://www.armenianchurchyouth.com/heritage/history/vartan/events.html) estimates that date being 34BC: "55-34 B.C. Reign of Artavazd II in Armenia fights as an ally of Parthians, is captured and exiled by Mark Anthony."

Obviously, if the son of Tigran II Great was Armenian, so was his father. Next:

I have to question this conclusion because the son of Tigran II had another parent: his mother. What nationality was she? Armenian? And if this dynasty continued to take for their wives daughters of the local Armenian nobility, wouldn't there come a point when they must be considered Armenian? -- llywrch 16:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Nationality is passed through the father in the Caucasus and most of the world. On the top of that, Tigranes' mother was Armenian, as there is no evidenceof that and no need for that -- virtually the entire leadership of Armenia, majority of cities populations, etc., were non Armenian. The Armenian kings were slowly Armenianized only later in ADs. There is a book in Armenia, written by an Armenian of course, which shows that at least 1/3 of queens of Armenia were Armenian in origin. But anyways - Tigranes was Armenian, as all specialized research affirms he was of Iranian or Parthian origin. --AdilBaguirov 12:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, your statement surprises me! You may be right about the practice in Africa or the Far East, but in my experience (admittedly limited to Europe and North America), nationality is passed along from both parents. But in any case, could you permit the possibility of another opinion on the matter, especially as you admit that there is "no evidence" about Tigranes' mother's nationality? A statement along the lines of saying that he was "of Pathenian ancestory" would undoubtedly satisfy both schools of thought on the matter.

The population of the cities in Armenia was not mixed Persians. Armenians were forming dominant part of the cities' population [i.e., Armenians were in definite dominance at least in the cities].

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Kill the messenger?

The following text is currently in the article:

Lucullus' reaction was an attack that was so precipitate that he took Tigranes by surprise. According to Roman historians Mithrobazanes, one of Tigranes' generals, told Tigranes of the Roman approach. Tigranes was, according to Keaveney, so impressed by Mithrobazanes' courage that he appointed Mithrobazanes to command an army against Lucullus – Mithrobazanes was however defeated and killed.

Is the courage unexplainedly attributed to Mithrobazanes because a previous messenger had lost his head for warning of Lucullus' approach? Or is that story here being garbled in a different way? Andyvphil (talk) 08:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Help request

Where was Tigran the great born?

According to the Armenian Wikipedia article about him, he was born in Arzanene. No source is given, though, so make of that what you will. English sources don't seem to make any mention of his birthplace. Yunshui ^雲_水 15:56, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.186.141 (talk) 19:40, 8 March 2017 (UTC) 

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Zoroastrianism

In response to the personal attacks leveled against other editors, and a certain editor's refusal to use the talk page:

• Romeny, R. B. ter Haar. Religious Origins of Nations?: The Christian Communities of the Middle East, page 264;"The largest expansion took place during the reign of Tigran (II) the Great, who ruled between 95 and 55 bce and whose empire at one time stretched from the Mediterranean to the Caspian Sea..[..]..The court ceremonial was Achaemenid, containing also Parthian elements. However, perhaps due to the influence of the queen, Cleopatra of Pontus, there were Greek rhetoricians and philosophers at court..[..]..At court Greek may have been spoken; Tigran's heir Artawazd II wrote his plays and other literary works, which were still known in the second century ce, in it..[..]..Tigran's religion was probably Mazdaism, a variety of Zoroastrianism."

• Curtis, Vesta Sarkhosh, "Ancient Iranian Motifs and Zoroastrian Iconography". In Williams, Markus; Stewart, Sarah; Hintze, Almut (eds.). The Zoroastrian Flame Exploring Religion, History and Tradition, 185;"Members of the Armenian royal house were most probably followers of Zoroastrianism and the Iranian "yazatas".

• de Jong, Albert (2015). "Armenian and Georgian Zoroastrianism". In Stausberg, Michael; Vevaina, Yuhan Sohrab-Dinshaw; Tessmann, Anna (eds.) The Wiley Blackwell Companion to Zoroastrianism, page 119–120;"It is certain that the Armenians and the Georgians (or Iberians) were Zoroastrian before they converted to Christianity."

Looks like Tigranes was Zoroastrian to me. Not to mention the entire Armenian royal family! --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:27, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose See the Սամուէլ's comment on HistoryofIran's talk page which he deleted immediately after, because he couldn't come up with an answer:

[1] [2]

I) On Tigranes the Great page, the sources on supposed religion of Tigranes II are actually talking about Tiridates I and not Tigranes II. If possible, please back it up with a more reliable source

II) I've seen you claiming that there was no pre-Christian indigenous faith in the Armenian highlands, which I don't find to be true. Of course, I could be wrong (and I'll be more than happy to learn the truth, if I'm wrong), but there are many things wrong with such vision.

• Why were some Gods worshiped in the Armenian highlands against the supposed Zoroastrian faith? For example, Torq Angegh, Vahagn, Astghik, Selardi, Spandaramet, and so on and so forth. Wouldn't this go against Zoroastrian cannon? We also have Vishapakars in Armenia.

• The ideology of Zoroastrianism was based on the struggle between light and dark. However, the Armenians erected statues to honor the sun and the moon. Furthermore, native faith of the Armenians is characterized by the worship of a Triad. The Urartians worshipped three great gods: Haldi, Theispa, and Shivini. The same notion existed in Armenian society, in which the Triad consisted of Aramazd, Anahit, and Mihr. They all share common traits and worship, surely it means that they are the same Gods using different names.

• Wouldn't Garni be Zoroastrian? Since there was no native faith in Armenia, what was Garni temple? It surely can't be Zoroastrian as it is deticated to sun-God and is not a fire temple.

• And at the end, why would Armenian sources not mention Zoroastrianism as native faith? Wouldn't it be more logical for them to claim that they were Zoroastrian, to prove that the faith before Christianity was foreign and not Armenian? --Biainili(talk) 20:23, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Couldn't answer or didn't want to answer? Didn't realize you could read minds. The sources speak for themselves. Even now you are denying the existence of sources stating that Tigranes was Zoroastrian, amazing lol. Also, what are you opposing? It's not like you get to choose, the consensus of his beliefs are quite clear. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:58, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

• "On Tigranes the Great page, the sources on supposed religion of Tigranes II are actually talking about Tiridates I and not Tigranes II. If possible, please back it up with a more reliable source

Wrong. Romeny is specifically talking about Tigranes II. "Tigran's heir Artawazd II, his wife Cleopatra of Pontus, "Tigran's daughter Ariazate" Miss these parts? That entire paragraph speaks of Tigranes II. I guess when blinded by nationalistic nonsense you can not even see facts when posted. FYI, R.B. ter Haar Romeny, Professor of Ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern History and Head of the Department of Art & Culture, History, and Antiquity (AHA). This source is more than reliable. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:19, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

And another one:

• Zoroastrian Faith: Tradition and Modern Research, S. Nigosian, page 37;"Armenia, situated on the western borders of the Persian empire, was under Persian suzerainty for almost eight centuries, from about the sixth century BCE to the end of the third century CE. Throughout this entire period, and particularly during the latter part of the Parthian dynasty, Armenia was predominantly Zoroastrian land." --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:24, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

And one from Romeny, page 261;

• "during the Achaemenid period the Armenians came to adhere to a form of Zoroastrianism, which underwent changes until the adoption of Christianity."

Another one;

• Ethnicity in Ancient Mesopotamia: Papers Read at the 48th Rencontre Assyriologique Internationale Leiden, 1-4 July 2002, W. H. van Soldt, Dina Katz, page 366;"When Zoroastrianism entered Armenia during the Achaemenid period the Armenians preserved strong regional traditions and incorporated them into the imported religion (Russell 1987, 439)."

No doubt about it. Zoroastrianism entered Armenia during the Achaemenid period, which supports Romeny. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:27, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

And another one;

• The Formation of Armenian Identity in the First Millenium, Theo Maarten van Lint, "Church History and Religious Culture", Vol. 89, No. 1/3, Religious Origins of Nations? The Christian Communities of the Middle East (2009), page 261,"During the Achaemenid period the Armenians came to adhere to a form of Zoroastrianism, which underwent changes until the adoption of Christianity." --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:31, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

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Possible corrupted text

It it possible that Aryazate was married to Orodes and not to Gotarzes? This seems chronologically more likely than her marrying gotarzes. In such case the scribe would have made a mistake 2A00:23EE:1560:3989:86DA:516E:C7A2:A843 (talk) 08:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Lack of Historical Evidence for the Claim of Alan Roots in Tigranes's Mother

In Adrienne Mayor's book, The Poison King: The Life and Legend of Mithradates, Rome's Deadliest Enemy, it is mentioned on page 136 that Tigranes's mother has Alan roots. However, there is no historical support or evidence in the book or outside of this book to substantiate this claim by the author. Consequently, this assertion is unfounded and should be removed.

In early records, such as those by Movses Khorenatsi in his History of the Armenians, there is no mention of Tigranes's mother having Alan roots. Khorenatsi is well-regarded in scholarly circles for his evidence-based approach to historical writing, which was notable for his time. If Tigranes had Alan roots, it is likely that Khorenatsi, being an earlier historian and closer in time to Tigranes, would have documented this fact. The absence of such a reference in Khorenatsi’s work suggests that the claim lacks historical support. Artaxias V (talk) 19:04, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The book is of high quality and authored by a research scholar from the Classics department at Stanford University. Your opinion (or mine) accounts for nothing, as Wikipedia is solely written using reliable sources. Therefore, your claims of "no historical support" or "it is unsubstantiated" are irrelevant. What you are doing here, and in your edit summaries[[3]-[4], is called WP:OR theorycrafting. Combined with the removal of reliably sourced content, this constitutes WP:TENDENTIOUS editing. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:51, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi @LouisAragon, this appears to be an error by a single author. I have never seen any other source refer to Tigranes having an Alan mother. Most likely, the author is mistakenly associating with Tigranes Satenik, the (most likely legendary) Alan princess who is said to have been Artaxias I's bride. Artaxias was, of course, Tigranes's grandfather but not his father. Even scholarly works can make errors, especially on minor details that are not the main subject of the book. It's also worth noting that, while written by a scholar, this book is targeted towards a broader audience and has been criticized in at least one review in a reputed journal for making claims without adequate evidence (and indeed, I don't see a citation for this particular claim in the book). I believe this falls under WP:EXCEPTIONAL: "Surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources". Revolution Saga (talk) 20:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The book does not provide any evidence that Tigranes the Great had Alan roots, nor does any other book mention such a connection. If you can provide verifiable evidence that supports this claim, beyond a single source, we can consider including it. However, in the absence of such evidence, the claim should remain omitted. Artaxias V (talk) 14:05, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Revolution Saga: Fair argument. I agree with your assessment. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:47, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Adding of Armenian alphabet

the addition of the Armenian alphabet to the articles of the Armenian ancient kings before the invention of the Armenian alphabet is important. Firstly, the fact that the normal Armenian alphabet did not exist at that time does not mean that the Armenian language did not exist. And I noticed that when other people tried to add the Armenian alphabet, they immediately deleted it and claimed that it was vandalism. Then I have a question for you, why did the ancient Georgian kings write the Georgian alphabet? And you don’t even think of saying that the Georgian alphabet existed at that time, it was invented by Mesrop Mashtots immediately after the invention of the Armenian alphabet, and the fact that the Georgians claim that they had an alphabet before that is not confirmed 37.252.83.79 (talk) 08:31, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

It seems like you made such a statement that they don't know how to answer you, because in fact you are right 46.71.135.207 (talk) 13:39, 26 August 2024 (UTC)